Why Can't A Car Have Both Manual AND Automatic?

"Jonee" (Jonee) 05/04/2015 at 19:29 • Filed to: None

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This brief exchange on the FP has me wondering. Can a car now have both a manual and a an automatic that you could switch from one to the other?

Engineering a mock clutch with some feel that a computer translates to the electronic clutch in a semi-automatic would be a challenge, I think, but we put a man on the moon, dammit. And instead of flappy paddles, you have a stick that could be turned on and off.

For Sweden > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:33

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not for canada - australian in disguise > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:34

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Make it work something like this.

Manual, but if you turn the dial it goes into auto.

Alex from Toronto > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:35

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Zipppy, Mazdurp builder, Probeski owner and former ricerboy > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:35

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Something that could manually control all the different clutches in an auto? SORCERY!

Jonee > not for canada - australian in disguise 05/04/2015 at 19:41

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Right, but with a clutch, too.

Blondude > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:46

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So like...

?

rb1971 ARGQF+CayenneTurbo+E9+328GTS+R90S > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:47

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I’ve got a Maserati GranTurismo S that has an auto mode. It only has 2 pedals and buttons, but I suspect you could insert a stick and clutch pedal that is stick-by-wire and clutch-by-wire and have the computer use your input where reasonable, but override as necessary. But that would be pretty complicated to get a third pedal that the computer could override.

BoxerFanatic, troublesome iconoclast. > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:49

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They have tried that.

Autostick. TipTronic, and any other sport-shift automatic tries to do that, because to have an automatic transmission, you have to have an AUTOMATIC transmission. For there to be an automatic mode, it has to be automatic by default, with user controls added on. There has to be a torque converter to account for not having to press the clutch in order to avoid stalling the engine at a stop. There has to be a hydraulic, mechanical, or electronic (or a mix of two, or even all three) control system for shifting the gears automatically. Mechanically, that is an AUTOMATIC transmission, with user control suggestions after the fact.

Automated clutch gearboxes (DSG, PDK, dual-clutch, F1-style gearboxes) come closer to the mechanical link between the engine and the tires, without a torque converter, and with a mechanically engaged clutch or an alternating pair of clutches.

A fake “stick” and a ‘clutch by wire’ could be rigged up, but what on EARTH would be the point of all that engineering a weight addition to replicate a SLOWER anatomical movement on a gearbox that is already faster than a human can shift? On a faster gearbox, a paddle behind the steering wheel is a faster command protocol for both human and ‘robot’. That is why those gearboxes were developed for racing, and are still used for that purpose.

Manual gearboxes are fun, but they are arcane machines. Updating them with new technology, but keeping the old manual controls simply for the pleasantness of manual control feedback has no other point than maintaining that tradition, and that isn’t reason enough. If you want traditional... stay with the traditional manual gearbox... and then USE IT.

If manual shifting becomes less than a necessity in that particular car, by not being mandatory in order to get that car to move, it won’t be used very often, and automatic will be the default mode. Then you might as well have an automatic with user-control suggestions to the transmission control computer.

I am a fan of manual gearboxes, and I have one, and I prefer them... but it isn’t for any other reason than traditional driver feedback. Not because they are inherently better machines, as they once were. Automatics are better than they have ever been... and automated clutch gearboxes are quantitatively better than both, regardless of feedback quality subjective opinions.

Jonee > Blondude 05/04/2015 at 19:52

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Same idea, yeah, but with a clutch and not sequential like that. The right side of that was basically so you could move the lever and not go into reverse.

tromoly > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 19:54

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Automatic:

Manual:

Unless it’s basically a manual that’s ECU shifted, it’s highly unlikely to happen.

Jonee > tromoly 05/04/2015 at 20:01

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I was thinking like a dual-clutch semi automatic with a dummy pedal. So instead of switching from auto to tiptronic or flappy paddles, you have a stick with a shift pattern. It’s not something that is particularly practical, it’s just fun to think about from a Jalop perspective.

AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 20:06

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AHEM I also believe this idea should work for a car with a manual and an automatic.

Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 20:13

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I’ve thought about this but the added clutch pedal is too much fakery. Just duct-tape a worn out tennis ball down there and pretend yourself.

If anything I think the middle ground would be a DSG/PDK-like automated manual, but with an H-pattern shifter that jumps to the selected gear automatically rather than a sequential click through the order. (Works with or without “custom” tennis ball clutch option.)

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > tromoly 05/04/2015 at 20:16

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Where’s fifth on the manual?

Jonee > Danimalk - Drives a Slow Car Fast 05/04/2015 at 20:21

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The added clutch is mostly pointless, yeah, but could act like a neutral select. The patterned shifter has got to be doable, but probably also would be looked at as ridiculous by most auto engineers.

Jonee > AddictedToM3s - Drives a GC 05/04/2015 at 20:22

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Yeah, combine both ideas. An efficient auto for the little engine and a manual for the monster motor.

tromoly > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 20:23

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Sounds like you’re wanting a manual valvebody automatic. Basically an automatic transmission with the valvebody modified so that it does not automatically shift, rather waits for user-input to shift gears.

tromoly > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/04/2015 at 20:25

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Some manuals only have three speeds, some even have six speeds. There’s no fast-and-lose rule to number of gears in transmissions.

RallyWrench > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 20:28

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Jonee > RallyWrench 05/04/2015 at 20:31

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I briefly had a Karmann Ghia auto-stick. I actually liked it, but slow as molasses. Subaru also put a clutchless stick in some 360’s. My idea was to be able to switch back and forth between total auto, and true manual, clutch and everything.

BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. > tromoly 05/04/2015 at 20:50

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The diagram is labeled 1 through 6 and 5th is missing.

desertdog5051 > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 21:40

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For the same reason they hardly produce manuals now. NOBODY WILL BUY IT.

tromoly > BmanUltima's car still hasn't been fixed yet, he'll get on it tomorrow, honest. 05/04/2015 at 21:42

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I completely missed that. Good catch.

samssun > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 22:54

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Now that dual clutch transmissions are feasible you probably won’t see it, but back during the sequential age I thought it would be cool to have a traditional manual which could be computer activated. Go full manual, or just shift the stick and the computer would sense and operate the clutch, or use paddles and have the computer clutch and shift for you.

Think how cool it would be to hit the paddle and watch the stick THUNK from gear to gear.

Jonee > samssun 05/04/2015 at 23:36

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I love that idea. It’s like when I was a kid we had a player piano and I loved watching the keys go up and down.

samssun > Jonee 05/04/2015 at 23:42

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Yep and being mechanical with visible/tactile responses (vs. say just doing the same thing internally with only buttons/lights to let you know) would make it much more engaging. Of course, you might have issues with the shifter whacking inattentive passengers...

Jonee > samssun 05/05/2015 at 00:40

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Or vice-versa.

Jobjoris > Jonee 05/06/2015 at 05:23

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I had to read this twice. But it’s actually a good idea: fake all the things.

Just tell the boys of our M35-R&D to add this to the list.

Jonee > Jobjoris 05/06/2015 at 14:28

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If we did this on our car, I’d want it to be all complicated old-school technology. No computers. Hydraulics and switches and other stuff that’ll break. It’s an amusingly absurd idea to me. The clutch pedal might need to hideaway during automatic mode so it doesn’t get in the way.

Jobjoris > Jonee 05/06/2015 at 17:42

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Brake/Accelerator are both pushed by your right foot. The clutch won’t get in the way, don’t worry. Of course it needs to be some mechanical solution. I think we need some epicyclic gearing to solve this puzzle.

Jonee > Jobjoris 05/07/2015 at 01:21

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And maybe some vacuum activated servos.

I like the idea of the clutch pedal folding away, or something, to add complexity. Maybe you remove it and it becomes a column mounted shifter for automatic mode.

Jobjoris > Jonee 05/07/2015 at 02:27

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May I suggest the floor to open up, pedal going down/backwards and the floor closing again? That’s at least 2 extra electronic motors!